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Venerable special counsel Jack Smith spoke with lawmakers on the relieve of closed doorways in December. That testimony is now public.

SCOTT DETROW, HOST:

On Fresh one year’s Eve, the Republican-led House Judiciary Committee released photos of closed-door testimony from the person on the heart of the Justice Department’s investigations into President Trump. Venerable Special Counsel Jack Smith led two probes – one centered on Trump’s strive to overthrow the 2020 election outcomes, which culminated in the January 6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol, the 2d on Trump’s facing of classified paperwork after leaving the White House and his alleged refusal to flip them relieve over to the authorities.

The Department of Justice dropped each and each cases as soon as Trump won any other length of time, and Smith resigned in the final weeks of President Biden’s tenure. Nonetheless in the newly released photos, Smith stood by his work and defended his investigations. NPR reporter Luke Garrett has been combing through the almost 300 pages of testimony and joins me now to talk it through. Whats up, Luke.

LUKE GARRETT, BYLINE: Whats up, Scott.

DETROW: So, Luke, in 2024, these cases were a nice files legend. I hosted a full podcast about them. And now, a year into Trump’s 2d length of time, they honestly feel treasure ragged historical previous. So let’s birth with this. Remind us why Jack Smith realized himself on Capitol Hill to birth up with.

GARRETT: Precise. So his cases are dead in Trump’s DOJ. Nonetheless relieve in October, the Senate Judiciary Committee released data exhibiting that Smith’s team analyzed the phone data of some GOP lawmakers relieve in 2021. This triggered outrage amongst Republicans, a great deal of whom claimed this used to be additional proof that the Biden administration used the DOJ to assault the GOP and Trump for political functions. So in early December, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Jim Jordan, subpoenaed Smith to testify on the relieve of closed doorways. Now, Jordan did this even though Smith supplied to withhold out a public listening to on Capitol Hill. In the kill, Smith testified privately on December 17, and now now we possess the transcripts.

DETROW: So that which you would possibly want to perchance additionally possess got been studying all of them, which you would possibly want to perchance additionally possess got been observing the video. What possess you learned?

GARRETT: That is steady. So a few issues. Nonetheless to birth, or no longer it is worth noting here how uncommon it is to listen to straight from Smith. He, , in fact did now not give a ton of public statements or talk over with the click. So or no longer it is well-known that he gave a fat-throated protection of his first case against Trump for making an strive to overthrow the 2020 election. Let’s rob a hear.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

JACK SMITH: President Trump used to be by a large measure basically the most culpable and most to blame person in this conspiracy.

GARRETT: And Smith went on to dispute claims that his investigation and conclusions were political.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

SMITH: I entirely disagree with any characterization that our work used to be in any plan meant to bog down him in the presidential election.

GARRETT: And, Scott, in the course of this deposition, Smith many events mentioned he believed the proof gathered against Trump in this 2020 election case would possess ended in a conviction.

DETROW: Neither of these cases got shut to an actual trial for a large diversity of causes, but I’m outlandish – did Smith hiss why he believed that?

GARRETT: Successfully, no longer exactly on the why section, but he did hiss how he would possess labored against a conviction. Here’s Smith over again.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

SMITH: Our case used to be built on, frankly, Republicans who put their allegiance to the country sooner than the rating together.

GARRETT: He cited a Republican Pennsylvania elector who suggested investigators that he believed Trump used to be making an strive to overthrow the election and that it used to be illegal. Smith also pointed to frail Vice President Mike Pence as a cooperative Republican in this case against Trump. Now, curiously, when requested if he would possess known as Steve Bannon, Roger Stone or Peter Navarro as witnesses in the case against Trump, Smith mentioned, no because he regarded as them, quote, “highly uncooperative.”

DETROW: You mentioned that no doubt one of many causes that House Republicans wished to possess this listening to used to be the incontrovertible fact that Smith’s team had tried to rating entry to their phone data. Did that reach up in this testimony?

GARRETT: Sure, it did. Smith confirmed that his team did rating phone data of some GOP senators, but they were handiest timestamps of the calls in and around the January 6 assault and no longer the contents of the dedication itself. He defended his team’s seizing of these data and laid blame on Trump’s actions which prompted the total investigation.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

SMITH: Donald Trump directed his coconspirators to call these of us to additional lengthen the courtroom cases. He chose to withhold out that. If Donald Trump had chosen to call a replacement of Democratic senators, we’d possess got toll data for a replacement of Democratic senators.

GARRETT: Now, Scott, the diagnosis of phone toll data is a general investigative tactic, but there are ongoing debates about whether the DOJ wants so as to use this tactic against a sitting member of Congress.

DETROW: The January 6 case and the election case used to be this form of colossal deal that hung over U.S. politics, but many just steady analysts belief that the case about classified paperwork used to be no doubt the stronger just steady case. I’m outlandish what Smith mentioned about that case.

GARRETT: So here, we did now not study exceptional. Smith used to be largely mum on this investigation, citing a federal settle’s thunder barring him from in fact disclosing well-known aspects on this case. Though Smith did indulge in a level in pronouncing he used to be birth to sharing extra well-known aspects about this classified paperwork case, he factual can no longer carry out it now, legally.

DETROW: Luke Garrett, thank you so exceptional.

GARRETT: You bet.

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